Jesus Creed - Discussions on Hell (July 2014 - July 2015)

Universalism and Death (by Jeff Cook)

Jul 6, 2015 @ 5:01 by Scot McKnight 111 Comments

This post is by Jeff Cook, and I am committed to giving space to Jeff’s public ruminations because they are reasonable and give us space to think through challenging topics with rigor. Jeff Cook: I’ve become convinced this year that the traditional view of hell will not last as a dominant theory among scholars for [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 111 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell: Jeff Cook’s Closure

Jun 3, 2015 @ 0:02 by Scot McKnight 64 Comments

Jeff Cook teaches philosophy at the University of Northern Colorado. He is the author of Everything New: Reimagining Heaven and Hell(Subversive 2012), and a pastor of Atlas Church in Greeley, Colorado. You can connect with him at everythingnew.org and @jeffvcook. One thing I admire about Jeff Cook is his willingness to put his thinking on the line for others to debate, [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL 64 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell: The Argument from Location (Jeff Cook)

May 26, 2015 @ 0:04 by Scot McKnight 128 Comments

A solid number of theologians and scholars over the past century have questioned whether the church has understood hell correctly. The most widely held view has interpreted “hell” as “eternal conscious torment,” but this view is not as easily justified through the scriptures or through reason as we might think given its prominence. I wish [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 128 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell 3: Jeff Cook

May 18, 2015 @ 5:03 by Scot McKnight 38 Comments

Repainting Hell : The Argument from Desire  (Jeff Cook) As Thomas Aquinas once offered five ways to know a God exists, so too I hope to offer five ways to know that hell is not “eternal conscious torment.” Like Aquinas, my arguments will be philosophical in nature. Though I think there are many solid biblical [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 38 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell 2 (Jeff Cook)

May 11, 2015 @ 5:13 by Scot McKnight 45 Comments

Repainting Hell: The End of Evil  (Jeff Cook) As Thomas Aquinas once offered five ways to know a God exists, so too I hope to offer five ways to know that hell is not “eternal conscious torment.” Like Aquinas, my arguments will be philosophical in nature. Though I think there are many solid biblical reasons [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 45 COMMENTS

Does God’s Mercy Endure Forever, or Does it End?

May 4, 2015 @ 0:04 by Scot McKnight 24 Comments

Rob Bell asked the question if God’s mercy would endure forever so that people would have opportunities to turn to God in the afterlife (postmortem opportunity = PO) or if that mercy would end at death. Bell’s answer was a deft move in rhetoric: love wins, he said. Dante’s famous Divine Comedy disagrees for in it we [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL 24 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell: C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright (by Jeff Cook)

Apr 27, 2015 @ 4:54 by Scot McKnight 106 Comments

One of the features of this blog I like is the inclusion of disparate voices. I, Scot McKnight, am not the only voice; RJS is another voice; John Frye, Jonathan Storment, and Jeff Cook are other voices. And others send me posts and we post them to give yet more voices a platform to create [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 106 COMMENTS

Is Heaven Vital for Morality or Not?

Apr 27, 2015 @ 0:05 by Scot McKnight 10 Comments

You may well recall the famous scene in Les Miserables in which Jean Valjean comes clean in public to take the place of another who was in fact on trial instead of himself (Valjean). The scene poses the moral theory called altruism, that is, that one does what is good for others in a disinterested manner. It [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: ETHICS, HEAVEN, HELL 10 COMMENTS

God’s Love and Hell

Apr 10, 2015 @ 0:09 by Scot McKnight 26 Comments

Here’s how he begins the chapter, with a question: How can hell exist if God is truly love and will bring his world to the perfect comic end we explored in the first chapter? The answer? Well, what I want to argue is that hell can exist precisely because God is love. Because God is [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 26 COMMENTS

The Importance of Heaven and Hell

Mar 10, 2015 @ 0:07 by Scot McKnight 15 Comments

No one in the world has thought more about heaven, hell and purgatory than Jerry Walls. He has an academic, but accessible, book on each topic and now he has brought all his thinking together in one far more accessible, rearranged book called Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: A Protestant View of the Cosmic Drama. Just a few [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL, PURGATORY 15 COMMENTS

Judgment Day: God’s Home Makeover

Jan 5, 2015 @ 4:46 by Scot McKnight 31 Comments

The very claim Christians have always made is that at some day God will judge us all.Every.last.one.of.us. The great, last judgment. The question many have against that claim is this: Is it all that simple, that God will save the Christians and all the non-Christians will be banned from God’s good, eternal blessedness? Yet, I think [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL 31 COMMENTS

“God is on a mission to get the hell out of earth”

Dec 15, 2014 @ 0:05 by Scot McKnight 26 Comments

I have been reading Joshua Ryan Butler’s The Skeletons in God’s Closet, the first major section in which is a study of hell – and how it fits into the Bible’s narrative. Hell without a story becomes a torture chamber. Butler begins by clarifying the all too common view of hell: We get hell wrong because we [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL 26 COMMENTS

Skeletons: Introducing Joshua Ryan Butler

Dec 1, 2014 @ 4:25 by Scot McKnight 7 Comments

I will tell you why I like Joshua Ryan Butler’s The Skeletons in God’s Closet: The Mercy of Hell, the Surprise of Judgment, the Hope of Holy War. Because he’s young and is sensitive to some of the Bible’s most sensitive issues (see the topics in that subtitle?), because he forges his way into these topics [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: BIBLE, HELL 7 COMMENTS

Is the Lake of Fire Torture? Josh Butler

Oct 10, 2014 @ 0:13 by Scot McKnight 37 Comments

IS THE LAKE OF FIRE TORTURE? by Josh Butler, author of the just-out and excellent book, The Skeletons in God’s Closet. More about Josh below. Many a street preacher has used the “lake of fire,” an image in Revelation, to depict God as a sadistic torturer who likes to roast unrepentant rebels like kalua pigs [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 37 COMMENTS

Evangelical Alliance Examines the Conditionalists

Aug 18, 2014 @ 0:08 by Scot McKnight 10 Comments

The Evangelical Alliance is the UK’s version of a genuinely evangelical and ecumenical organization. If I may, American evangelicalism has never been able to get along well enough to form such an organization (unless I’m mistaken). It seeks to bring together all of the UK’s evangelicals; it does not attempt to show how other (supposed) [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 10 COMMENTS

Can Hell be Restorative?

Aug 7, 2014 @ 0:17 by Scot McKnight 28 Comments

Christopher Marshall, a professor at Victoria University in Wellington, New Zealand, thinks so. While I’m not entirely sure he resolves the problems he generates, and he generates them as well as anyone I’ve read, his approach to the problem of hell (Rethinking Hell) is somewhere along the line of conditionalism or annihilationism or final radical [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 28 COMMENTS

Terrance Tiessen’s Journey to Solve the Hell Problem

Jul 28, 2014 @ 4:57 by Scot McKnight 21 Comments

This post is by Terry Tiessen, and I use the post with his permission. I set out to write a blog post that grew rather large. So I have decided to split it into two posts, of which this is the first. Here I will relate the story of my long journey in quest of [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 21 COMMENTS

Do All Humans have an Immortal Soul?

Jul 24, 2014 @ 0:08 by Scot McKnight 14 Comments

If you believe in the immortality of the soul, so it would seem, you would have to believe in endless punishment of the wicked or universalism. In the history of the church, belief in the immortality of the soul has been a constant. Not all, but most have believed God made humans immortal. While N.T. [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 14 COMMENTS

The Bible’s General Trend and Hell

Jul 21, 2014 @ 5:10 by Scot McKnight 47 Comments

In the exceptionally useful anthology of scholarly pieces on conditionalism (or annihilationism) in Rethinking Hell (ed. C.M. Date, GG. Stump, J.W. Anderson), one of the most important contributions is by Harold E. Guillebaud, whose work is now harder to find (I find no copies available through Amazon). Guillebaud lays down some strong lines to open [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 47 COMMENTS

The Clobber Text for ECT-ers

Jul 16, 2014 @ 2:33 by Scot McKnight 24 Comments

The clobber text for those who embrace eternal conscious torment is Revelation 14:11,with vv. 9-10 preceding it. Another way of saying this is that this is the defeater text for conditionalism; another way is to say this is the one text conditionalists have to use gymnastics to explain. Here it is: 9 If anyone worships [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 24 COMMENTS

3 Positions of Hell: The Traditional View, Annihilationism, and Universalism, Part 1 of 3

Universalism and Death (by Jeff Cook)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2015/07/06/universalism-and-death-by-jeff-cook/

by Scot McKnight

July 6, 2015

Comments

Scot: This post is by Jeff Cook, and I am committed to giving space to Jeff’s public ruminations because they are reasonable and give us space to think through challenging topics with rigor.

---

Jeff Cook: I’ve become convinced this year that the traditional view of hell will not last as a dominant theory among scholars for much longer. The arguments for the traditional hell fail so spectacularly and their conclusions are so repugnant that the traditional view is only carried in the popular mind by assumption and convention.

No, the conversation about hell in the 21^st century among those who study [theology] will shift and the debate will focus on two morally-coherent views of hell: annihilationism and universalism.

Recently, at Fuller a conference was held outlining and exploring these two views, and I wish to present and dialogue through the three arguments I presented. This will be the first of a three part series thinking through the purgatorial view of hell.

Preliminaries

First, though I am passionate about the intellectual and ethical failures of the Traditional View of Hell, [however,] I do not feel the same way toward the Purgatorial View. I champion Universalism as a far superior option to Traditionalism and think it can be spoken of boldly from within orthodoxy defined by the Creeds.

Second, let’s talk definitions. For “Annihilationism” to be a proper description of hell—one person must cease to exist and no human being can suffer indefinitely. Given the Annihilationist conception of hell, It could be the case that there will be souls who repent in some purgatorial world; so too, a soul may be punished punitively for a limited time if that is necessary to fulfill justice. Looking at them in turn, Annihilation has the widest arms, allowing for appropriate reprimands and, if possible, inviting God’s love to do its work in a postmortem sphere.

By “Universalism” (or the “Purgatorial View”) I mean the theory that every human being will eventually, now or in some post-mortem future, embrace redemption through Christ. For the sake of these posts, I will exclusively engage the writings of John Hick and Robin Parry who have done praiseworthy work for the rest of us and set out some initial reflections to questions I’m inclined to ask.

Lastly, what I hope to do in these posts is offer a set of potential anomalies or inconsistencies for Universalism to consider. I myself do not think any of these arguments are decisive disproofs, but taken together I think they constitute a worthy set of questions that may push Universalists to a more complete theory or move them toward a preference for Annihilationism.

So here we go…

Argument 1: Universalism needs to Wrestle with Death

What is the point of death? God has allowed, if not foreseen, a world in which human beings will die. Death may be the result of sin and human choices, but God has actualized a world in which death could be/would be a reality. So why?

What purpose does death hold on Universalism? If the soul is immortal and redemption will happen eventually, why does God create the twofold experience of life, then death, then a different form of life?

There’s an argument to be made here from Ockham’s Razor: If we hold that a simpler world is more likely, Annihilationism is not only superior to the Traditional View, but to the Purgatorial View in its simplicity.

Given Universalism, those who reject God will experience a purgatorial state, but if we hold to Ockham’s Razor we might ask: “Why didn’t God simply create the purgatorial world without a physical death? Why the two stages and not one?” What’s the purgatorial experience going to solve that this world cannot? Perhaps it provides more time, but why not construct a world with more time?

I am inclined to think some knowledge and experiences may be counterproductive in this life (given the function of life now), but quite valuable after death. So too, I am open to thinking some choices may only be available after death and only then have soul-restoring power. Why this could be the case, however, needs clarity.

Now, Robin Parry has an answer here. He argues, “Hell is supposed to be a punishment for wrong doing, but in this supposedly efficient scenario people have not even had the opportunity to act wrongly. I understand hell to be a post-mortem situation in which God brings home to us the terrible consequences of sin, [but] this makes sense for someone who has lived a sinful life and needs education.” (MacDonald 162).

I don’t find this line sufficient. God could provide knowledge of sin’s consequences in any number of ways without violating one’s freedom or contradicting the achievement of God’s other priorities. For example, we know many things about sin and its consequences: intuitively, through watching the experiences of others, even fictional displays communicate very well (I imagine a dark screening of “Clockwork Orange” or “Kids” may be sufficient for many to know the horror of life without God).

Now, is knowledge of the consequences of sin the only reason for the experience of death? If so we might question, given the deep pain associated with death, whether this was the best option available to God. All things being equal, death seems something to avoid and the fact that God did not avoid death in the world he actualized points to a difficulty within Universalism. God could have created a purgatorial world perfectly constructed for soul-making without death.

Now, as an Annihilationist, I would affirm the purgatorial world [of this life] is the world God created. That is, our world sufficiently purges, refines, awakens, and constructs what are initially embryotic souls.... Some Universalists affirm the perspective of John Hick and his recent articulation of an Irenaean theodicy, much of which I would also champion (see Everything New). Hick does a masterful job showcasing why pain in this world is necessary given God’s aims at creating sons and daughters.

The Annihilationist has a good answer to why God allows death. Given death and our potential evaporation, the weight of our moral choices are elevated and have more significant consequences. Given how human beings function and the seductive nature of some sins, death is a spur for right living.

Furthermore, the simplicity of Annihilationism [(sic, Ockham's Razor)] makes it more likely, not relying on non-empirically verified spheres of existence or extended lengths of time to do work that we all see is presently taking place in the lives of many now.

Jeff Cook teaches philosophy at the University of Northern Colorado. He is the author of Everything New: Reimagining Heaven and Hell(Subversive 2012). You can connect with him at everythingnew.org and @jeffvcook.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Related Articles on Hell @ Relevancy22 - refer to topic list under "Hell"

Why Not Purgatory? - Divine Synchronicity: What Does It Mean for Christianity?

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Related Articles on Hell on Scot's blogsite

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Universalism and Death (by Jeff Cook)

Jul 6, 2015 @ 5:01 by Scot McKnight 58 Comments

This post is by Jeff Cook, and I am committed to giving space to Jeff’s public ruminations because they are reasonable and give us space to think through challenging topics with rigor. Jeff Cook: I’ve become convinced this year that the traditional view of hell will not last as a dominant theory among scholars for [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 58 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell: Jeff Cook’s Closure

Jun 3, 2015 @ 0:02 by Scot McKnight 64 Comments

Jeff Cook teaches philosophy at the University of Northern Colorado. He is the author of Everything New: Reimagining Heaven and Hell(Subversive 2012), and a pastor of Atlas Church in Greeley, Colorado. You can connect with him at everythingnew.org and @jeffvcook. One thing I admire about Jeff Cook is his willingness to put his thinking on the line for others to debate, [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL 64 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell: The Argument from Location (Jeff Cook)

May 26, 2015 @ 0:04 by Scot McKnight 128 Comments

A solid number of theologians and scholars over the past century have questioned whether the church has understood hell correctly. The most widely held view has interpreted “hell” as “eternal conscious torment,” but this view is not as easily justified through the scriptures or through reason as we might think given its prominence. I wish [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 128 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell 3: Jeff Cook

May 18, 2015 @ 5:03 by Scot McKnight 38 Comments

Repainting Hell : The Argument from Desire  (Jeff Cook) As Thomas Aquinas once offered five ways to know a God exists, so too I hope to offer five ways to know that hell is not “eternal conscious torment.” Like Aquinas, my arguments will be philosophical in nature. Though I think there are many solid biblical [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 38 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell 2 (Jeff Cook)

May 11, 2015 @ 5:13 by Scot McKnight 45 Comments

Repainting Hell: The End of Evil  (Jeff Cook) As Thomas Aquinas once offered five ways to know a God exists, so too I hope to offer five ways to know that hell is not “eternal conscious torment.” Like Aquinas, my arguments will be philosophical in nature. Though I think there are many solid biblical reasons [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 45 COMMENTS

Does God’s Mercy Endure Forever, or Does it End?

May 4, 2015 @ 0:04 by Scot McKnight 24 Comments

Rob Bell asked the question if God’s mercy would endure forever so that people would have opportunities to turn to God in the afterlife (postmortem opportunity = PO) or if that mercy would end at death. Bell’s answer was a deft move in rhetoric: love wins, he said. Dante’s famous Divine Comedy disagrees for in it we [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL 24 COMMENTS

Repainting Hell: C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright (by Jeff Cook)

Apr 27, 2015 @ 4:54 by Scot McKnight 106 Comments

One of the features of this blog I like is the inclusion of disparate voices. I, Scot McKnight, am not the only voice; RJS is another voice; John Frye, Jonathan Storment, and Jeff Cook are other voices. And others send me posts and we post them to give yet more voices a platform to create [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 106 COMMENTS

Is Heaven Vital for Morality or Not?

Apr 27, 2015 @ 0:05 by Scot McKnight 10 Comments

You may well recall the famous scene in Les Miserables in which Jean Valjean comes clean in public to take the place of another who was in fact on trial instead of himself (Valjean). The scene poses the moral theory called altruism, that is, that one does what is good for others in a disinterested manner. It [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: ETHICS, HEAVEN, HELL 10 COMMENTS

God’s Love and Hell

Apr 10, 2015 @ 0:09 by Scot McKnight 26 Comments

Here’s how he begins the chapter, with a question: How can hell exist if God is truly love and will bring his world to the perfect comic end we explored in the first chapter? The answer? Well, what I want to argue is that hell can exist precisely because God is love. Because God is [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HELL 26 COMMENTS

The Importance of Heaven and Hell

Mar 10, 2015 @ 0:07 by Scot McKnight 15 Comments

No one in the world has thought more about heaven, hell and purgatory than Jerry Walls. He has an academic, but accessible, book on each topic and now he has brought all his thinking together in one far more accessible, rearranged book called Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: A Protestant View of the Cosmic Drama. Just a few [Read More...]

FILED UNDER: HEAVEN, HELL, PURGATORY 15 COMMENTS

• 1
• 2
• 3
• …
• 7
• Next Page»