White Christian Nationalism in the United States – Session 2

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White Christian Nationalism in the United States – Session 1

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White Christian Nationalism in the United States – August 18, 1 pm – 3:15pm

Session 1: White Christian Nationalism Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow – August 18, 1 pm ET – 2:15 pm ET

Session 2: Engaging White Christian Nationalism in Public Spaces – August 18, 2:30 pm ET – 3:45 pm ET

Participants: Anthea Butler; Caroline Mala Corbin; Kristin Kobes Du Mez; Samuel Perry

Moderator: Andrew Whitehead

Description: The Trump presidency, culminating in the Capitol insurrection on January 6, 2021, brought into sharp relief the importance of white Christian nationalism as an animating force in American civil society. Millions of Americans believe that the United States should be distinctively “Christian” in its public policies, sacred symbols, and national identity. As the insurrection made clear, the implications of such beliefs are very real.

This online mini-conference brings together the leading scholars, authors, journalists, policy experts, and public theologians in order to discuss white Christian nationalism from a variety of perspectives.

The first panel—“White Christian Nationalism Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow”—will revolve around the study of white Christian nationalism from a cross-disciplinary perspective, including history, social science, and law.

The topic of our second panel will be “Engaging White Christian Nationalism in Public Spaces.” This panel will move beyond the study of white Christian nationalism to include journalists, clergy, policy experts, and public theologians to hear more about how they engage it in their various spheres of influence.

"Justice is a journey. We are responsible

to promote the next, right step."

 - Jemar Tisby

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SESSION 2 - SECOND PANEL

“Engaging White Christian Nationalism

in Public Spaces.”

Notes by R.E. Slater

August 18, 2021

Amanda Taylor - Moderator. Director of a Baptist organization for religious freedom for all, not simply white Christian nationalists (WCN). People of all faiths and none have the right to engage against religious white nationalists. That America is a melting pot for all races, etc.

• Jack Jenkins - Journalist and Report for Religious News Service.
• Jemar Tisby - Historian, author, speaker.
• Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove - Author, speaker, and Director of a non-profit.
• Angela Denker - Lutheran Pastor, writer.

What is White Christian Nationalism?

Denker - It conflates the God and Jesus of the Bible with America. To be a Christian is to be an American patriot thus reinforcing WCN.

Jenkins - The belief that America was founded and should remain as a Christian nation.

Tisby - An ideology that idealizes and advocates a fusion of Christian with American civic politics - an ethnocultural identity of race, faith, and nationality (cf. Perry, Whitehead's book). It looks like the American flag in the pulpit, Trump flags with the Cross, The bible held over Trump's head, etc.

WH - What good Christian people always have believed. That it is a cultural product for white people to hold onto power.

What Threats Do WCN Present?

WH - It is a direct threat to the soul and to the Christian faith. Nationalism has nothing to do with faith. It is an idol in one's life. Idols twists and turns one's faith away from God. Too, it excludes all people except white American Christians and refuses to expand American democracy to all. Seen in voter suppression and election subversion (overturning votes), and propagandized WCN lies by rightwing social media and news media.

Tisby - WCN is the greatest threat to the witness of the church in the United States. Not Critical Race Theory but WCN. It consolidates and holds on to power by any means necessary. It is a mortal threat to democracy. It is also a literal, physical threat in that it condons force and violence in preserving white power (sic, Jihad, Nazism, Taliban extremists). It aligns its self with acts of violence and terrorism. Especially to minorities it considers as a threat. It leads to the invisibility of the other. It removes the humanism of humans. It doesn't see a person but a threat to its power.

Jenkins - WCN threatens the very core and nature of Christianity itself. It is both a heresy and a cultic/sectarian terroristic threat. To pluralism, to democracy, to national unity embracing diversification of all. It is also being denied as a movement. It's vision is being ignored to our harm. So it is both an existential and physical threat to Christianity and American democracy.

Denker - A direct threat to the Gospel of Jesus. It is an idolatry. It is a search for worldly power and money. Isaiah 52 end - quoted by Jesus. All this goes against the vision of Jesus by WCN. Too, it presents a very real threat of violence and racism. It will participate in the harm and suffering, if not murder and death, of the unrecognized other.

How Has Christianity Changed Over the Years?

Jenkins - WCN has always had a presence in America's history. From its earliest days unto now and beyond. But for today's landscape WCN has consolidated around the rise of Trump. In Trump's Inaugural Speech he is speaking over WCN. It is very present danger.

Tisby - We are living in the modern day Civil Rights Movement (BLM). It is a very large movement bringing both symbolic and real-life changes. State flags, monuments, laws are being removed, amended, and adapted. Too, the opposition against racial advocates declares the civil rights movement is an active upsetting force to white power (aka, the Capitol insurrection). Even in the Homeland Threat Assessment are mentioned the racially and violently motivated white supremacy groups as part of WCN. MLK's dream speech says we must always respond to the fierce urgency now to support all our brothers and sisters of all colors and genders. John Lewis, Bob Moses (MS) have died and are the last of MLK's legacy. Who now will grasp the baton and continue this present desire for equality for all?

WH - This didn't just happen. There are forces heavily invested to maintain white power and privilege. We need a shared vision of how to lift from the bottom and to put away our white needs for the help and assistance of the other. 

Denker - We are in a war for the truth. Conspiracists, Qanons, Trumpites, and Supremacists are providing alternate versions of facts with fictional gaslighting charades each and every day. Working with a heavily based Trump-based blue collar community, especially in rural Minnesota, has presented a particular burden of responsibility to speak out to conservative Christians in the hope for dialogue and understanding. I feel today even a greater weight and more personal cynicism towards what my faith had played in its display against the Other. Its hate. And its desire to harm the Other for their own personal gain. Trump people are not good Americans. They have corrupted the faith of Jesus and its outreach to all people. That WCN has victimized communities, people groups, and unwanted Christians standing for Jesus and God's love. Trump signs are anathema against God indicating violence and Christian Jihad against America. We are to encourage fellow Christians to continue to speak up against racism and bigotry. To call it out and to dismantle it.

How Then Do We Work Together With One Another?

WH - Constructive Vision shows what a beloved community looks like, how it invests in others, how it lifts up the beautiful ways of Jesus through all cultures and not just one.

Tisby - We must march, resist, be non-violent activists, calling out inequalities, showing courage, willing to risk and lose honor given by white Christian friends and relatives if they will not respond. We need to create goodness, benevolence, sing, write, paint, dissent, etc. To tell a different story. A better story of solidarity with God and man. Effective change must happen on the micro level. If it doesn't than it cannot be effective.

What Would an Organize Response to WCN Look Like?

Tyler - Firstly, to name it. To stand up for everyone's rights.

WH - WCN is for a limited electorate. For lower taxes with smaller government, denial of climate science, lesser services for poorer people. As versus, what is God for? What is the bible for? What is Jesus for? Poor people. Justice. Love. A revolution of values is a revolution showing God's love.

Denker - A movement for biblical literacy. For complimentarism. For reclaiming the biblical text. For seeing the people of the bible not in white cultural terms. True Christianity breaks up, burns up, destroys idolatrous religion. Unloving religion. Unhealthy institutionalism.

Helpful References

23 Black leaders who are shaping history today

10 Modern Black Civil Rights Leaders to Follow Today

Activists chart course for Black America's progress after a year of turmoil

After John Lewis: 21 civil rights leaders who are shaping America

* * * * * * * *

John Lewis was the last-surviving speaker from the historic 1963 March on Washington
for Jobs and Freedom | Image: REUTERS/Dustin Chambers

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SESSION 2 - TRANSCIPT

THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES WERE MISSED RE DEFINING WCN...

TOO, THE SPEAKERS HAVE NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED IN TRANSCRIPT.

Unknown 0:00

I'm really about confronting Christian nationalists that we have to understand it and understand its threats, and so you know I'm going to start off with Jonathan and kind of go in reverse order here, if you could all kind of share with us what you view to be some of the main threats of white Christian nationalism. These could be threats to society at large to Christianity to adherence of other religions to those who don't claim a religious tradition to religious freedom for all. or to your particular sphere of influence, and you know as you answer it also invite you if there's anything from the first panel that you'd really like to draw out or highlight as well invite you to do so. So Jonathan, if you want to lead us off and talking about what threats we should be watching out for for Christian nationalism.

Unknown 0:56

Well, I'm concerned about Christian nationalism, because I think it's a threat to the soul. And I was caught up in it myself, and came to understand that when you conflate this kind of ideology that's tied up with white supremacy American supremacy and an extreme political agenda at the moment. When you conflate that with faith, then you get into what the Bible calls idolatry right to turning an agenda that humans pursue into the thing that we actually honor and worship with our lives. And so, I am concerned about it as Christian and as a preacher, as a kind of idolatry that has twisted and turned the faith, for many people who are sincere believers. They're sincerely believing something that's not Christianity and the church has a responsibility to pastorelli walk people towards conversion in that situation, but I'm also concerned about it, you know, as a citizen of this country, and as a citizen of the world. I see. Religious nationalism, doesn't just affect Christianity there's religious nationalism all over the world. And it can use other religions too. And here I see it as a fundamental threat to democracy and to the kinds of goods that democracy can can give us. So I said, a bit earlier that I think the organizations that have created the culture behind this, it's important to know about those pay attention to them. I've been following them closely since I wrote revolution of values, and one of the things I know is that they have a very clear policy agenda for this year and it's voter suppression, and voter suppression and vote and I should say election subversion, not just getting people not to vote but overturning votes that they don't like, if this happened to be the majority of the votes in particular states. That's a big threat to democracy. And I think it's important to realize that even when the language isn't directly connecting Christian nationalism, to voter suppression and elections aversion, the people who are doing it are certainly understanding that they have the support of the white Christian nationalists base as they pursue that agenda tonight I think you're next I want to talk about some of the threats, we're facing. There's so many. Oh, my, my mind.

Unknown 3:38

So I have called White Christian nationalism. The greatest threat to the witness of the church in the United States. That is a direct contradistinction to the erroneous falsehood, life on the critical race theory is the biggest threat. And we'll get into that later, I'm sure. I echo what Jonathan said from a civic perspective, what white Christian nationalism does is try to consolidate and hold on to power by any means necessary, including voter suppression and election subversion. So it's a mortal threat to democracy. I also want to highlight. It's a literal, physical threat, we cannot overlook the fact that in order to consolidate and hold on to power there is this condoning of force and violence. We saw this in many cases right in the first panel. Dr Anthea Butler said this January 6 is not the last we've seen a bit and she's so right, is not the first we've seen a bit either if you go back to the unite the right rally, so called right. Heather hire was killed by a white supremacist Nazi sympathizer, the ways that white Christian nationalism, allies itself with the terroristic acts with excellent violence. If the most notorious white supremacist group that we know in the US the Ku Klux Klan envision themselves as Christian. And we can't overlook that, and then events is itself in real, literal, physical threats, especially toward people who white Christian nationalists would consider other which would encompass anything from black people to LGBTQ people to Jewish people, so there's that real physical threat. And then I think the subtler threat of white Christian nationalism is a ubiquity. That leads to indivisibility. That ubiquity that leads to invisibility meaning for so many white Christians. White Christian nationalism isn't white Christian, it's just Christianity. It is what they've grown up with, it's what the people they've trusted their pastors their parents whomever, that's what they've communicated and promulgated, as the faith, so to identify why Christian nationalism say hey that's not the Christianity of Christ is to them, attack the very foundations of their faith. And so, that compels us to constantly name it and identify it and pointing out because otherwise people don't even see it. And that is the deadliest threat, the one that you don't even see Jack, what do you think about threats to white Christian of white Christian nationalism.

Unknown 6:50

Well yeah as a as a reporter, I'll know, I have heard any number of people describe Christian nationalism as an inherent threat to a number of things I've heard both as activists and average faith leaders, describe white Christian nationalism as a threat to me as has already been described, the nature of Christianity itself. That's why ever prominently, faith leaders, decry Christian nationalism white, Christian nationalism as a literal heresy, you know, the strong language you can get in the Christian faith. You have also heard people describe it, I think outside of the Christian context and Christian Christian nationalism, often seems to mirror threats that people often describe as nationalism in general, right, so the idea of in group out group of white Christian nationalists and then every body else apparently, any number of scholars or activists have noted that if they inherit threat to pluralism, this idea of multiple different groups being able to fully express themselves in the same society which is also a de facto threat to democracy, because we often understand it so we've heard scholars for years argue that, you know, versions of Christian nationalism in general tend to lean themselves in the direction of coming up against our understanding of representative democracy here in the United States. And on January 6 there's overwhelming evidence to see that that a literal attack on democracy was, you know, Christian nationalism was part and parcel of that event, I don't think you have to look very far to see that, as both things are essential, and perhaps literal threat to Democratic lawmakers and democracy itself. And so, you know, as someone who what's been interesting as a reporter for the last few years, you know, as I as I attend these events and I should mention, you know that I'm a consistent presence at these events that's because I'm covering them that December participating in them. You know what I see this really increasingly vocal subset of Americans, you know, kind of involved themselves Christian nationalism. I am also seeing this sort of equally vocal religious outcry against it, and it's funny how they're kind of gives this call and response where I'll be you know, at the Capitol, on, on January 5 to be talking to people, you know, at the Jericho March who have one very specific vision of what America should be and then on there six months later, you know, covering the Portugal's campaign in the exact same location, you're praying, and, and, you know, singing hymns and having with a very different vision of what America should be and those groups, quite often, those people pushing back against Christian nationalism describe it as both a existential and digimarc point literal threat to the faith into their own security. Thanks for that important clarification to about your role. Angela you want to. In this question with how you

Unknown 9:57

view the threats. I want to speak first as a pastor and as a leader and then secondly, as an American, as a woman and as a mom, versus a pastor and as a faith leader. I would echo what some of the previous panelists talked about, which is that I see this directly as a threat to the Gospel itself that Christian nationalism is an idolatry and a threat to the gospel in much the same way as you read the entire Bible, the threats to both in the Hebrew Bible the threats to the God of Israel, the threats to Jesus, are all rooted in idolatry search for worldly power and often for money. And so I actually when we were talking about the question I pulled up. Luke chapter four. And the very first speech that Jesus gives and he stands up I think emerald was the scroll of the prophet Isaiah, He says, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed Me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. And so everything that Christian that white Christian nationalism is lifting up in America is fighting against this vision of Jesus it's fighting against good news for the poor it's fighting against release to the captives, and you know that's the gospel that I believe in so strongly that I left sports writing I left my previous career to go and to become a minister and to, you know, fight against this culture that wants to reject much of what Jesus is saying here, so I see a very real threat to the gospel and of course, I don't believe the gospel is meant to lose. But I actually believe it's a big threat to what, what I believe in in what I'm fighting for. And then secondly, particularly, you know, as an American that asks, as a woman, as a woman pastor, and as a mom. I see a very real threat of violence and a very real threat of death that comes out of Christian nationalism. Both myself having been the recipient of violent threats from people who espouse Christian nationalist beliefs, maybe I'll get some more after this conference we'll see, but also as someone who has watched people suffer from COVID folks who are suffering because they didn't get vaccines, folks who are suffering because their children can get vaccines. People who have suffered directly because of racism. Here I'm speaking to you from Minneapolis just a few miles from where George Boyd was murdered. So the violence that comes out of this rhetoric and the debt that we've seen on a huge scale are very real for us.

Unknown 12:46

Well thank you and thank you to all of you that this show us, you know, how varied, I think the threats are as serving in this role as both moderator, but also as an advocate on this cause. I would say, Amen and all of the above to everything that you all have said, and and I would also add, you know as the leader of an organization devoted to religious freedom for all. and a faith based organization devoted to that when people ask me what I view as the biggest threat to religious freedom. I have come to answer Christian nationalism and white Christian nationalism because they think that the ideology undercuts the principles that support the freedom of every American to believe and to act on those beliefs without unnecessary interference of government. If we espouse to Christian nationalism, so I would just round out the conversation with that comment. So now I'm going to just talk to specifically to each of you and your particular areas of expertise and the context of your work and starting with you, Jack is a reporter you have been covering Christian nationalism for a number of years, long before it ever we ever dreamt that it would be a term that would trend on Twitter as it certainly has, Over the last several months and in many different ways and so I'm curious to know kind of how you've seen the conversation around Christian nationalism change over the last several years, and also to hear what advice you might offer to your fellow journalists who are covering religion and covering Christian nationalism about what they might look for and how they might report on it.

Unknown 14:29

Sure, thank you for this question, I, I should note as a caveat from as it's been rightly pointed out to me. Many a time, there young Christian nationalism has popped up in a variety of ways throughout American history and as a consequence you know there has been ample writing about it, and condemning of it primarily people who aren't included the image division right so if the jukebox plan it's an overtly Christian nationalist entity, then the outgroups for genuine people of color, non Christians are very particular kinds of Christians all folks that were excluded from Christian nationalist visions in the past have all written about this extensively throughout American history, but in its contemporary sense for me you know when I started noticing it beyond the the fringes of say evangelicalism and some other parts of American Christian landscape was around the time of the rise of Trump, both his campaign and then into rapper who was elected and I noticed that there were actually some conservative writers, who were some of the first people to notice in his campaign at least in public. And then, for me I was, I was sitting in a cabin in the woods, listening to his inaugural speech in 2017 on a radio of all things, and I, as I was listening to his speech, it occurred to me like well this is over, Christian, nationalism of certain how those words get put together. And, and so that kind of launched me throughout 2017 I'm working on this series of pieces about this tracking it understanding in the Trump Era how it has been configured in the Trump era, and I thought I was particularly clever he was writing about this thing that other people weren't writing about Andrew Whitehead drops an email in my inbox with like, not only do we know a lot about this, we have all this data, would you like it, that's like, absolutely. And I think what has been interesting to observe, over the course of the last few years is that, you know, observations about Christian nationalism, went from this thing that prior to the Trump era my husband centered on Woodson seemed like a more fringe elements of, you know, when it's often described as the Christian right through the religious right, you know, Michelle. Goldberg wrote a book called kingdom coming back in the pushing era looking at this group, as this sort of sub culture and in the Trump era because so many of these leaders were elevated positions of power and influence and that the President himself was constantly invoking this or at least in active and enthusiastic conversation with people who are unapologetic Christian nationalists, this, this rhetoric around this conflict around Christian nationalism shifted from this thing that might be interesting to subculture of people to oh this is what political power can look like in America, in 2016 2017, and so on and so it started to be become understood as a political bloc as a group of people that might vote or advocator, you know storm a capital, and, you know, and in pursuit of this very specific vision for how they think America should look and you know I've seen even my fellow religion journalists start to take this, this concept this ideology this identity far more seriously, both in terms of looking for it. And, you know, in the American public and in the mountains of politicians, as well as just in data as well as you know, like, looking at voting blocks and how people turnout on election day and I will know that. Unsurprisingly, the biggest spike, I've seen have been going from something that people might talk about in general or you know very into the sixth or seventh paragraph of a piece that changed a lot after January 6, when suddenly there were a series of national conversations about this ideology and this identity and so you know I think that that that is something that's interesting to have observed as to your second question about my fellow journalists about what to look for. I mean, in some ways, it's rather simple, right, like it's one of the things that once you've seen it, it's hard to unseat and you can find it in rhetoric, you can find it in speeches, but I think it can be easy, and I think this is a problem that we have both religion journalists fall into who, who don't want to be super salient in politics because it's not their main beat and politics reporters can fall on to you who aren't super salient religion that's there, maybe, is that, for instance, you'll read a political article that will just leave out the Christian nationalist sentiment that a politician, delivered from a podium, and a religion reporter that will get really into the weeds about the theology believe out the nationalist call that is a part of that same faith leaders sermon, for instance. And so looking for one of the two overlap I think is one of the most valuable ways of understanding how Christian nationalism can operate as a theology and can operate as this political rallying cry, what is perhaps most prominently observed when it is an identity. We're just the two that almost distances itself from theology in favor of a specific way of viewing oneself and the world. In other words, the same way we view any number of other political nationalist movements throughout human history, so that's a long winded way of saying, I think it's, it's a serious political topic now and one that's difficult to ignore, and frankly it's something that you now see the phrase Christian nationalism, at least if not white, Christian nationalism appearing in the pages of legacy outlets today.

Unknown 19:52

I think that's really helpful Jack and I do think that even if we've seen it in the past having it labeled as such really helps us draw this together and help make sense of it, when we do see it again. Jamara turning to you you know your professional expertise and how you come at this originally is, as a historian, but I know from your writing and from your public speaking, you always turn to act. How can that studying history, help us understand white Christian nationalism and importantly, how can it help us move into action.

Unknown 20:30

So, first let me start with what may be a controversial or provocative statement and certainly not least because it's coming from a historian and we're supposed to focus on describing and training past not pontificating about the present but, nevertheless, the statement is this. We're living in the modern day civil rights movement. We're living in the modern day civil rights movement now I think there's an empirical data that reinforces this different polls in 2001 showed that between 15,000,020 6 million people in the United States participated in some form of Black Lives Matter protests, and just by the numbers that will eclipse, the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s. We've also seen important changes, some of them are symbolic, but I don't discount symbolic changes because symbols tell stories and stories are powerful. One of the most notable changes, certainly for me, who lives in the Delta is that the state flag of Mississippi finally came down in 2020 Of course, it was the last state in the union that had the Confederate emblem on its Canton and it was literally a white supremacist symbol flying above the state that has the highest proportion of black people in state in the union. And that finally came down in the midst of the racial justice uprisings 2020 After 126 years. And then also I think it's important to know, in the context of this conversation about white Christian nationalism, one of the indicators that were in the civil rights movement of our days not just sort of the participation or the progress. But the opposition that that, that, that racial justice advocates face. And so, of course, the the kind of most prominent example is the January 6 insurrection, at the Capitol, which was not at all disconnected from the fact that black voters helped propel Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to the presidency. And, you know, white supremacist and white Christian nationalist forces pushing back against multiracial democratic participation, like that. I'll also know, sort of highlighting something I said before about the physical threat that the Department of Homeland Security annually puts out. Its, its homeland threat assessment in the homeland threat assessment. It said that domestic violent extremists that online domestic violence extremist racially and ethnically motivated by extremists, specifically, white supremacist extremists will remain the most persistent and lethal threat in the homeland. And we are seeing a rise in in these groups from, you know, the folks there under all kinds of names and labels and banners, but they often have this sort of Christian Protestant veneer that could be categorized as white Christian nationalism, and so when I'm talking about action. I'm talking about what Martin Luther King called the urgency of now. He said this in 1963 in his I Have a Dream speech so that's almost 60 years ago, but in many ways, we need to still respond to the fierce urgency of now when it comes to racial justice so many people say you know if I was alive in the 50s and 60s I would have I would have protested, which I say well, what you're doing right now is exactly what you would have done back then. And so, it is incumbent upon us, when this breaks my heart is the past generation of people who actually lived through the Civil Rights Movement are passing away. So John Lewis died last year, not long before this mini conference, Bob Moses integral, leader of this team won by the coordinator of voting rights, especially in Mississippi. He adopted. So the question then for this generation in the modern day civil rights movement, who's going to pick up. Who is going to grab the baton and continue this race for racial justice. And so, I studied history, and I study raised and study social movements because it informs the present. But my hope and my desire is that it always moves for action,

Unknown 25:30

beautifully, beautifully put in and, you know leads me right into Jonathan, you know, it that fierce urgency of now and what a powerful voice you have as a faith based advocate. And so, just wondering, you know, what have you learned about the best way to combat white Christian nationalism, which can so often serve as an impediment to that kind of change that we're seeing calls for right now. And how do face based advocates, including Christian advocates that reject white Christian nationalism, engage engaged constructively in the public square in a way that can provide a really powerful counterpoint to the influence of white Christian nationalism that we see in our politics and what's his name, good.

Unknown 26:26

Really important, as I mentioned earlier to recognize that this didn't just happen that a culture was created. There are forces heavily invested in continuing to perpetuate that culture. And frankly, important say group parachurch organizations that influence people often more than their pastor or small group Bible study. I'm talking about Christian TV I've done my Christian radio I've done with these organizations to send free mailers, folks. And so all of that existed and I would say, since he's not here today, I think and Nelson's work on this is critically important and for anyone wants to understand the mechanics of how this culture has been cultivated and reproduced over. Really the past several decades, her shadow network on the council for national policy really lays out the organizational connections through which much of this happens, I think it's critically important to understand that and. And so given that that's the reality we face. I'm moved by that, dear sister behind my brother tomorrow on the wall. Sister, Ella Baker from my home state of North Carolina, Who understood, if you want to build culture you build movements, if you want to build movements you build people, you build people in local communities. And so that's why I invest much time as I have in the work of the four people's campaigns doing national movement I know this committed counting specifically religious nationalism. Five interlocking and justices to the Poor People's Campaign understand to be the threat to wellbeing for all of us in American society. And I think it's through building an understanding where people can bring their faith into action in public life, with people of the same faith people of other faiths, people of no faith, but who have a common vision for how we can live from the bottom, so that everybody rises and and is committed to putting that into practice in public in a constructive play, because I think what I would say to my fellow Christians, many of them well. But you've already describing is really the backlash against the civil rights movement we started during the civil rights organizations when I'm talking about Paul wire against established many of them in the 1970s have many partners and colleagues, and they have continued until today. So the reason that Christian nationalists, why Christian nationalism can have influence is because it has cultural institutions. They didn't used to be as loud as explaining. So they didn't get the same kind of attention, but that is the base. And I think their willingness to use Christian faith to sponsor lies, and I'm pretty explicit about using that term because I know these people knew they realize. Once you've convinced people to believe lies because of their faith. At some point I think you lose control over which lies people believe. And the other thing I would add to that is that I think some people in the communities that have been most directly targeted by this campaign are beginning to see that those lies can kill them too. And I think that's one of the things we're grappling with right now whether it's, you know, the fact of COVID denialism and indexing skepticism, you know, is creating real death right now in communities where Christian nationalism is really targeted to the kinds of conspiracies that we see now that people believe, because they were taught in Jesus name to believe lies, and now they believe that they can literally kill people. There was a story out of a community in California this week that most most of the news coverage didn't cover it is a story of Christian national father who killed his children killed him because he is a Christian in his community came to believe lies that

Unknown 31:06

have been perpetuated by conspiracy theory groups and q&a and the like. But I think you have to you have to understand the context in which Christians believe lies is a context that was created by this culture so creating an alternative culture to that and lifting that up, letting that be very public, and, and, and convincing churches that having a public witness in that way is important, is critical to the agent as it is referred to as moment.

Unknown 31:37

Thank you, thank you for that and I think it really does. You know what what inspires for me is there's so many different ways for people to states to take a role in in public life, and the principal way that many people continue to engage is in, in the face community and a specific faith community and so, Angela you've, you've referenced the many different hats and in different experiences you have but one of those is pastoring a church and so you know this in, In my role of speaking about Christians against Christian nationalism, I often get this question about pastors engaging their congregations in understanding Christian nationalism understanding that it's something that is present in nearly every faith community in this country, it's not something that's just in those other faith communities. And so, wanted to know from you to hear from you what advice you would give to pastors who are wanting to engage their congregations in a conversation about white Christian nationalism, And how can we challenge people to have difficult conversations while remaining in community with each other, to try to dismantle this ideology.

Unknown 32:53

Yeah well I really appreciate Jonathan's explicit framing of, of what we're, what we're up against right now is really boring, it's the truth. And this idea that defense of the truth defense defensive the sense that there is truth, is really what we're up against as citizens, and as faith leaders, and as fellow human beings. And so that hits me, of course, as a journalist to enter into that profession, seeking to tell the truth and also as a pastor. So what I'm going to do. To answer this question is to tell a story, and I have a unique experience because I live here in the city of Minneapolis, but the church that I serve. I'm their only pastor, but I drive an hour to get to my congregation I serve them part time we're a little Lutheran Church. They built it with their own hands were there about an hour west of the Twin Cities and a little town, and the majority of my church members are either farmers, or they're factory workers we have a big food processing plant, or else construction workers, people who really make up, in many ways, the base of white Christian nationalism, and so I'm pastoring in a county and in in the area of Minnesota that voted over two thirds for Donald Trump. And so what's really interesting for me is that every time that I drive up to my church. I drive from the very corner of Minneapolis and represented by Omar, to a very red corner of Minnesota, so I drive from one one America really to another America and I drive on one road the whole way. And as I drive, I begin to see signs for Donald Trump, more and more and more, and I remember in. So I want to take you back to the Sunday after taking racist. And I think like many pastors. As I watched January 6 unfold, and I was filled with fear. And, or terror in a lot of ways. I was also filled with a huge sense of responsibility of what in the world do I say, and I know for me. Yeah I wrote Redstate Christians that I had this amazing opportunity to travel around the country, and to really speak to conservative Christians in all different corners of America I tried to cover a lot of breath. And I did so with a sense of hope that there was hope for dialogue, that there was hope for understanding. And I will say that my hope in that has, has diminished in some ways. I've become much more cynical and I've also become weighted with the responsibilities that we must, must speak more explicitly and maybe even more explicitly than I did in the book, against the roots of Christian nationalism, so I felt this way, that as I spoke to my Congress. I had to do so very clearly and concisely and I could not mince words about what had happened on January, 6, and the role that Christianity had played in what had happened in America diamonds for pastors, is that when you feel that way, you feel you, I'm going to need to speak to my congregation on this, and especially for those of us who are serving congregations, But we may really disagree with politically broadly and not saying everybody in my church, but broadly,

Unknown 36:23

what I would urge you to do is speak clearly and speak honestly, and speak forcefully and also speak, contextually, because what I see sometimes what happens for a lot of pastors is will condemn real broadly what happened, but you'll leave your people sitting there listening, like, okay, but that wasn't us. Those other people you know there was an Tifa infiltrators but that doesn't have anything to do with us, you know, we just got our from signs up and that's, like, We're good Americans. So what I decided on January 6 Before I even began the service is I addressed what happened. And I addressed it by saying that you think that you don't know anyone, because of where you're situated, this is so far away, you think that you don't know anyone who has been a victim of the threat of right wing Christian violence, and I don't want you to look at me and see that I have that I have gotten that I have experienced this violence, and that this is personal, this isn't far away. This stretches right into our small town and I'm not, I'm not the only one. There's others among you who have been threatened in who have been victimized by right wing white Christian nationalism. And so, what I encourage them to think about locally, is to think about that for somebody like me, for people who have been victimized by the threat of white Christian nationalism, when they drive through this little town that, honestly, I love, I love the people in this, they have, they take care of that church. They take care of one another. One of my church members recently fell off the female there and everybody came together and harvested his crops for him. There's a lot of good there. But I said when people come through and they see those Trump sites. They don't see who you are as a parent, what they see is the threat of violence against them. And I asked people in my congregation to consider what those signs might mean, even if they didn't think that that's what those signs were saying, and to consider taking those signs down in there. So you give people something that they can do locally, like tomorrow and like Dr Sal pushes towards action, and you speak really honestly and concisely about how it relates, and so yeah I wasn't quite sure how that was received, you know right away. And I will say, because even when I'm real cynical and real hopeless because I have been, you know, lately. Summarize get pushed back towards hope. So here's a little story I hope one of my, one of my church leaders. He called me like a couple of weeks after that sermon, and he said, You first. So this is a guy he's a farmer he owns a lot of land I've been driving by, and I saw a Trump sign, and I wasn't sure if it was his land or not and I thought oh gosh, I hope that that's not his land, but it was. So he called me and he says, you know that really rubbed me the wrong way the first time I heard it. And he's like, so I've watched it again. And he's like, Yeah, I think it was important for us to hear. and I think it really, and then he goes, you know, and now I'm kind of ashamed of myself because I voted for the guy. So you got to think okay, you know, there's what the conversations that you're having in your community. They're making incremental change and we're up against as Jonathan says very well funded, very powerful organizations. But I think that pastors and faith leaders in their local community should be encouraged, that when you step out you're doing so with the holy spirit behind you and you're doing so in the service. Thank you for that...

...

Unknown 0:00

The big takeaways, both from panel one but also from this conversation is just how deeply entrenched Christian nationalism is how pervasive it is and how it really takes everyone working in their own spheres of influence, to call it out to understand it to work to dismantle it, that this is something that will take many, many years, and many people were working in a concerted way to do something about. And so my question that I would throw out for everyone to answer before we start turning to some audience questions, is how do we work together on this, how do we pull together I mean obviously we we do things in our particular experience and in our context, but what can we do to work together across our spheres of influence in order to confront Christian nationalism.

Unknown 0:51

For anyone who'd like to respond.

Unknown 0:57

Let me just say one thing I love, I love what you're doing with the witness.

Unknown 1:06

Because you're building culture. You've created a platform where people who, who are rooted in tradition that sees through the lives of white Christian nationalism, but also has a constructive vision, what the local community looks like for what discipleship looks like give them a platform. Right.

Unknown 1:28

and, and when there's not, you know, a media outlet for the people who have that message to share, create more. That's what you do.

Unknown 1:41

And now you know you're, you're trying to spread that you're trying to invest in other people, We're doing that because we need to build that kind of culture that lifts up the beautiful beautiful waves of Jesus that exists in this society that is somewhere else that exists right here, it doesn't get amplified by the media apparatus that was created.

Unknown 2:11

Well that's well received brother out appreciate it and I was literally what popped in my mind first was, people should access and support the Poor People's Campaign, and if you feel you should do that too. Yes.

Unknown 2:26

You know some good synergy there but but literally so when I say we're in the modern day civil rights movement if that is true, then what kind of action will it require on our part, is going to require direct action, nonviolent protests. It's going to require marches, it has, has already required people getting arrested. And we should not expect that our actions today would not include actions that others have taken before in the struggle for racial justice now can expand beyond that but I want to put that on people's radar that this isn't just going to be hashtag activism, you're gonna have to put your bodies on the line, your jobs on the line, I think, I think, I think the watchword for any sort of justice movement is courage.

Unknown 3:18

That's why I have been Kaymer over my shoulder. I mean, she was alone with nothing by earthly standards. She was born with the the the oppression trifecta, as I call it, she was poor, she was black and she was a woman. Not only did she risk it all she lost it all the first time she went just to sign up to vote. She not only got fired, but because she was a sharecropper she got kicked out of her home.

Unknown 3:42

No, no, if anyone did that they've sort of proverbial story of the widow's mite, she had very little, but what she had she gave.

Unknown 3:53

If anything hammer could do that what is incumbent upon us would have far far more in so many senses, right, and then why would justice not include us putting so much on the line. Now, the question is, you know, how can we come together. Well, number one, there are organizations doing this, so So seek them out, don't, don't necessarily try to reinvent the wheel for others are doing good work. But if, if there isn't, then I think one of the solutions is creation, you create something you put something together so whatever it is that you do, you write.

Unknown 4:34

You sing whatever it is, then we're just.

Unknown 4:38

So this is a call to creatives and artists of all kinds, this is a call to people, wherever your sphere of influence is to to make something that tells a different story, and a better story, and I can go on and on and on about how we come together to fight. White Christian nationalism, but I'll go back to Reverend anchors. So much of this you know we're looking for the big thing. So much of this is happening. Change happens on a micro level, and it's very unsatisfying in that sense it's not a law pass. It's not a, you know photo op that makes a national paper. It's that person makes that Facebook comment was that Facebook. And you may comment publicly or not, but if you got there.

Unknown 5:32

That's the hard part. That's where courage, because now it's personal and you're risking that relationship right. It's when your pastor says, or your church member says, where your, Your, your relative says when your friend says or does something there's smacks of white Christian that we're going to show up in that moment, because I ain't gonna be there. Most likely, they there's a wall of separation because of what I look like and what I stand for, but you might be in those conversations.

Unknown 6:00

And how would you use that is when we can get into specifics, but that's what I would say is a call to courage, and not just on the macro level, but the micro level as well.

Unknown 6:15

Right, well I'm gonna shift we have a number of audience questions, so I'm going to shift now into the audience questions. The first question is about building an organized response to white Christian nationalism, the question is, what would an organized response to white Christian nationalism look like it's not enough to simply gathered Christians against Christian nationalism, being against is a weak position, what compelling and persuasive stance, should we be offering, what are we for, so I'm going to I'm going to answer that specifically as it comes from Christians against Christian nationalism both would welcome other responses about what we're for. This is something, candidly, we struggled with, well as we were naming it. We thought it was very important though to name firmly what we were against. But if you go to Christians against Christian nationalism.org, you'll see a statement of principles, that is all for something that draws people across theological difference together. And what you'll see are principles that support religious freedom for all. And so that's my short answer is, how are we going to what is the best antidote to the poison of Christian nationalism. It's a commitment to the strong principles and standing up for everyone's religious freedom, and not basing someone's citizenship or someone's status in our community, on what they believe or don't believe so. So that's, that's what I would answer about what we're for but I wanted to open it up to anyone else about, about what the movement can be for as we as we combat Christian nationalism.

Unknown 7:55

It's really important to know what Christian nationalism is for. In concrete terms right we've mentioned it's for a limited electorate that allows for, particularly in the United States, older white people to have disproportionate influence. It's for lower taxes, smaller government programs, explicitly for the denial of climate science and other science now.

Unknown 8:26

And so, when you understand that people who have interest in that. And in that agenda, who have backed Christian nationalism as a Christian I go back to the Reverend negative was earlier, what is next for Jesus for what is God for. If you read it honestly I think you gotta say, Jesus is for the poor. That means against the basically got nothing to say to the rich sometimes.

Unknown 8:54

If you're not for the poor, you know, if you're not for justice to those will get marginalized or go to the side you not 40. So what does that look like and what's the bare minimum, all look like if people work all week long, they ought to be able to eat and feed their family, right, ought to be able to have access to health care, ought to be able to get affordable house

Unknown 9:23

study we got there's not a single place in the United States, where you can work full time at minimum wage and rent a two bedroom apartment.

Unknown 9:31

That's sinful, because people can't live if people can't live whether you're Christian or not, you can't be all the God wants you to be so so so to be for that, I think, is to come together around an agenda. And then, you know, as Christians, to read the text and understand the communities that have read the text to say, This is what God has poured, this is how, this is what it means to to be Christian. So, I mean those are the people who inspire and move me and I think that's the culture that I've been trying to encourage here, when I wrote revolution of values I paid attention to the community that have been reading this text this way for a long time, and simply tried to say you know there's a lot of us got led astray, and led astray by powerful forces, you know, in some sense, it's not the sole responsibility of the people who were desperate and yet people who've been led astray have to take responsibility for turning around but listening to other voices, and for reading the text in new ways, I think that's how we build, we build by lifting those voices we build by following the lead of those who understand that the gospel is for the for the marginalized.

Unknown 10:50

Yeah, I wanted to jump in, in that same vein and I remember when I, my first job as a pastor I worked as a pastor in Chicago, near you know large prints of harvest Bible Church. And when people were thinking about leaving to go to willow creek or go to harvest Bible Church they'd be saying, you know, well I really want to go to a Bible based church. Well that drove me crazy, especially as a Lutheran you know with this heritage of being, you know the Reformation movement to put the Bible in the vernacular and help people to read the Bible for themselves. So I think reclaiming, you know, I will say that this movement is for biblical literacy, this movement is for understanding aligned with a movement against complementarianism that has been led by people like Kristin Dubay from the last from the last presentation and like Brett Allison bar and this movement against complementarianism of movement towards really reclaiming the biblical text, and the liberation that they seek that they seek to bring, and who's who in the biblical text. I remember also there was sort of a discussion going around last summer where people were saying, Well, do you there's actually no white people in the Bible, and it was like actually guys, there are white people in the Bible, and we're the Romans are the ones who crucified Jesus, and so I think, really understanding not only American history but Christian history, and understanding that this movement is seeking to reclaim this buried gospel, the gospel that often gets buried but this gospel that has played a role in America, often through black Christians through the Civil Rights Movement.

Unknown 12:38

This gospel center Christianity has brought huge change to America, and has brought sources of hope to America. And so I think that understanding, again, what it would really look like to have a Bible based church, breaking down the design journey that has enabled White Christian nationalism is a huge piece towards re understanding what Christian witness in America can look like. And speaking for white mainline Protestants and denominations that try to, you know, we were shrinking we've been shrinking for a long time we've been crying out for it for a very long time, but there's still a heck of a lot of numbers, and money and institutional power within right mainline Protestantism, and I think that people need to sort of get over ourselves, and move to what we still have to, to put that together to really fight for the gospel and fight for Christian liveness instead of seeking to sort of maintain institutional power.

Unknown 13:45

Thank you.

Unknown 13:47

So now I have an audience question for Jack Jenkins.

Unknown 13:53

The question for Jack is, how might people support journalists who are covering white Christian nationalism and telling the truth.

Unknown 14:03

Well first of all, subscribe to your local paper, encourage them to have a religion reporter, and if you hear Christian nationalism article click on it and read it and share it if you can. I know that sounds like a very small practical reality but, you know, journalists, you know, we don't live in a stable fashion, as it were, in terms of being able to keep our jobs there aren't that many religion journalists in the country, full stop.

Unknown 14:30

And, you know, the even larger outlets don't really have, you know, dedicated singular religion reporters who might otherwise cover that you don't be a religion reporter to cover for sure nationals, you don't even have to be a religion reporter to cover religion a good reporter can cover anything if they have enough time energy care and dedication to the facts.

Unknown 14:52

So I say that to be like, you know, when you see a good article or you see a journalist who's really kind of, you know, covering this topic in an important and interesting and revealing way, feel free to reach out and let them know that or tell the world on Twitter or Facebook that ticky tock whatever those things are now, and and let people know that this is an important subject that people should cover because that's it it's frightening the back symbol also you know, donate to any, any at all, journalistic enterprises, but in addition to that, you know, I will say as a reporter.

Unknown 15:31

You know I think it's covering Christian nationalism doesn't just require covering those who might label themselves as such, although a lot of them don't you know people who might fall into the category of Christian nationalism, it's also, you know, chronicling those who are in conversation with them. That means those who are often decrying them or those who are standing up against them and one thing that often is the case in my profession is that you'll see a lot of people cover what Christian conservatives in general do, and it's, it's more rare than find a lot of attention and around, you know, very a variety of religious communities Christian and non Christian who might be, have a very different view of America or their own faith and so I would only add the identity matrix, we do, but there's actually a fun thing that's happened in the last few years, it's now that mature people like on this panel know about this, like whenever somebody mentions Christian nationalism, they'll be like this little thing on Twitter or they'll be like, oh this person wrote about it, and this person, you got to really nice this person who's going into their system has grown, the people who are writing about this topic, and they deserve support but also support those who were talking about those who might be impacted by Christian nationalism, you know most negatively, but whether that's, you know, chronicling ghosts who live within that sphere with those who are negatively impacted by it, as well as communities that decry it or have alternative visions it's, you know, it's a long winded way of saying the word religion journalism, but, but I think, you know, recognizing that it's a broad spectrum of coverage is important.

Unknown 17:03

It's really helpful and in good to have some concrete things that people can do. I'm going to go to something that's less concrete but pretty important and in a question that came up in panel one and that is resurfaced here, you know, we heard in panel one about how white Christian nationalism often relies on a persecution narrative, and in, it feeds into it and then this idea of loss of privilege, like Dr Keyaki Joshi, it's called you know white Christian privilege right this idea of when we see that loss of privilege, you view it almost as a loss of rights in the society and how that combined with a persecution narrative really is a toxic combination so the question is, how do we provide a different narrative, how do we flip the script on that, it, you know whether we're coming from a Christian perspective or not I wonder if anyone can can tackle I think what is a really difficult question that, that we need to address.

Unknown 18:10

Always remember, it's the party.

Unknown 18:14

Looking at me very sincerely with loving eyes as he always did, and asking me to consider what privilege, is it really to be descended of people who claim to own other people.

Unknown 18:29

And in a lot of ways that has shaped my own ministry to others who, you know we're taught to imagine themselves as white to interrogate the so called privilege that we both, you know, err, when we act like it doesn't exist, right, but also when we, When we just assume that there's something positive, that can be used without doing the soul work necessary to address the lies that are part of that formation. So, I think that's critically important from a pastoral perspective.

Unknown 19:16

Help people interrogate all the lies that come with imagining yourself as white, in society.

Unknown 19:25

We are wrapping up on our time, and so I wanted to give all of our panelists. Just a quick 30 seconds. Any last word, you have to offer a note of encouragement something that, that you want to be sure that our that our group here, hears before we end our time together. So, just to kind of open up for anyone who wants to offer.

Unknown 19:57

I'll just say if anyone was under the impression that dialogue around nationalism is going away. It's not, you know, Just over this past weekend, there was a, it was an anti vaccine anti mass growing in Los Angeles, and I think, you know, it made some news because there was a stabbing there were reports of a stabbing as well as scuffles between some more extremist groups, and some counter protesters at that rally but if you watch some of the speakers at that rally, they repeatedly invoked Christian nationalism, one of them, literally said that we need to instill the government with Christian values, it was, it was another one, quoted turning over the tables and making a with a core is something that people should do, you know, to push back against vaccine mandates or mask wearing.

Unknown 20:43

And the thing is that's pretty common. And I think this is a story that will continue to add, if not escalate at least continue to be a part of the American story for some time. So just continue to keep an eye out for it you know whether that's from reporting from Religion News Service, but also a number of other reporters and outlets as well.

Unknown 21:10

I think I'm gonna just offer some of the words that the apostle Paul often gives in his letters to the churches, is that we cannot get stuck in being discouraged, and there's many reasons to be discouraged but I think that if you're watching this and hearing the work of so many people here and especially the work of Dr. Whitehead, for putting all this together.

Unknown 21:35

There is great reason not to be discouraged, that, as you know we're experiencing terrible tragedy in Haiti, we're experiencing terrible loss of life and hope in Afghanistan, and also experiencing terrible tragedy around the Delta variant in the US, I think, finding ways out of discouragement and into hope, and remembering that for Christians, our hope is rooted in the cross. The thing that I always noticed about my investigations of Christian nationalism and being in spaces where Christian nationalism is prevalent, is that you really hear about the cross, it's a it's an emblem, it's something that maybe people wear a necklace. But you rarely hear about the cross. And so if we can reclaim the cross as the center of our faith.

Unknown 22:31

Then we have real reasons for hope, because our hope is rooted in something that looks like your death. And we wouldn't know much about it without those first women creatures, so how about that. All right. For me, a fantastic, thank you for that.

Unknown 22:49

I'll just say one thing I learned from your and Sam's work. Andrew is, you know, when you look at the data.

Unknown 23:02

Christian nationalism is real.

Unknown 23:05

And it's a minority.

Unknown 23:08

But the disproportionate influence of a minority has really worked our society. And so, I think, that data is a kind of call to action for people who have found themselves you know somewhere in the middle. They don't embrace this stuff but they also don't really understand it and often don't feel, you know, like they have a clear enough understanding to speak organize against it, I hope. If you've been here today, you feel like you have something better have a grip on it and can at least join those folks who are already organizing and working to create some real alternatives so I think that's where the hope is inviting the. We are the majority. But we've been quite

Unknown 23:58

laid back.

Unknown 24:00

Maybe the kindest way in our response.

Unknown 24:06

Amen highlight, underline everything that's been said, and all I'll say is justice is a journey. And you don't have to have the entire pathway mapped out marked out or understood, all you got to do is take the next right step. So don't go to sleep today before you decide on at least one thing you can do to promote a vision of the beloved community. Promote provision of justice and equity for all people to fight against white Christian nationalism, because you have the agency, you don't have all power only God does, but you have some, and use that for good.

Unknown 24:53

Thank you, and I will take moderators privilege very briefly Andrew and give one more moment of hope that I have, you know Christians against Christian nationalism earlier this summer just a month ago we released a new curriculum that churches can use to have conversations that highlights Andrews work and works if religious leaders and tomorrow's work and, and we were bringing it all together and in a month we've had 1000 unique downloads, that's 1000 communities that are ready to have a conversation that's helpful to me, and it's in it's that next right step, And so I wanted to draw that resource to the group's attention, but also to offer that that piece of hope and and give my final gratitude to this wonderful panel for your insights and your inspiration today.

END